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As longtime readers of this blog know, I have devoted a great many posts over the years to attacking the messaging  of the Armstrong Churche...

Tuesday, March 25, 2025

The Trinity: Early and Widely Accepted

I am offering the following quotations from the early Church which suggest a very early and widespread acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity. In particular, the first two quotations (Didache and Justin) seem to affirm this statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19)

The Didache (50-120) has this to say about baptism:

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

In his First Apology, Justin Martyr (100-165) had this to say about Christian baptism:

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

In his "Against Heresies," Iranaeus (Bishop of Lyon, 130-202) wrote:

The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, Ephesians 1:10 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father...

In Theophilus (Bishop of Antioch, 169-183) to Autolychus, the Trinity is mentioned as widely accepted doctrine.

In his "Against Praxeas," Tertullian (155-220) wrote this about the Trinity:

In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered, God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done (and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or οἰκονομία, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her — being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas. In this principle also we must henceforth find a presumption of equal force against all heresies whatsoever — that whatever is first is true, whereas that is spurious which is later in date. But keeping this prescriptive rule inviolate, still some opportunity must be given for reviewing (the statements of heretics), with a view to the instruction and protection of various persons; were it only that it may not seem that each perversion of the truth is condemned without examination, and simply prejudged; especially in the case of this heresy, which supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking that one cannot believe in One Only God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the very selfsame Person. As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons— the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds.

Sunday, March 23, 2025

Augustine "On the Trinity"

St. Augustine of Hippo lived from 354-430

The following excerpt is the entire 4th chapter:

7. All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father has begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire, but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, You are my Son, whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again; but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith.

The following excerpt is the entire 6th chapter:

9. They who have said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, or not very God, or not with the Father the One and only God, or not truly immortal because changeable, are proved wrong by the most plain and unanimous voice of divine testimonies; as, for instance, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. For it is plain that we are to take the Word of God to be the only Son of God, of whom it is afterwards said, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, on account of that birth of His incarnation, which was wrought in time of the Virgin. But herein is declared, not only that He is God, but also that He is of the same substance with the Father; because, after saying, And the Word was God, it is said also, The same was in the beginning with God: all things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made. Not simply all things; but only all things that were made, that is; the whole creature. From which it appears clearly, that He Himself was not made, by whom all things were made. And if He was not made, then He is not a creature; but if He is not a creature, then He is of the same substance with the Father. For all substance that is not God is creature; and all that is not creature is God. And if the Son is not of the same substance with the Father, then He is a substance that was made: and if He is a substance that was made, then all things were not made by Him; but all things were made by Him, therefore He is of one and the same substance with the Father. And so He is not only God, but also very God. And the same John most expressly affirms this in his epistle: For we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know the true God, and that we may be in His true Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


10. Hence also it follows by consequence, that the Apostle Paul did not say, Who alone has immortality, of the Father merely; but of the One and only God, which is the Trinity itself. For that which is itself eternal life is not mortal according to any changeableness; and hence the Son of God, because He is Eternal Life, is also Himself understood with the Father, where it is said, Who only has immortality. For we, too, are made partakers of this eternal life, and become, in our own measure, immortal. But the eternal life itself, of which we are made partakers, is one thing; we ourselves, who, by partaking of it, shall live eternally, are another. For if He had said, Whom in His own time the Father will show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality; not even so would it be necessarily understood that the Son is excluded. For neither has the Son separated the Father from Himself, because He Himself, speaking elsewhere with the voice of wisdom (for He Himself is the Wisdom of God), says, I alone compassed the circuit of heaven. And therefore so much the more is it not necessary that the words, Who has immortality, should be understood of the Father alone, omitting the Son; when they are said thus: That you keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: whom in His own time He will show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen. In which words neither is the Father specially named, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit; but the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; that is, the One and only and true God, the Trinity itself.


11. But perhaps what follows may interfere with this meaning; because it is said, Whom no man has seen, nor can see: although this may also be taken as belonging to Christ according to His divinity, which the Jews did not see, who yet saw and crucified Him in the flesh; whereas His divinity can in no way be seen by human sight, but is seen with that sight with which they who see are no longer men, but beyond men. Rightly, therefore, is God Himself, the Trinity, understood to be the blessed and only Potentate, who shows the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in His own time. For the words, Who only has immortality, are said in the same way as it is said, Who only does wondrous things. And I should be glad to know of whom they take these words to be said. If only of the Father, how then is that true which the Son Himself says, For whatever things the Father does, these also does the Son likewise? Is there any, among wonderful works, more wonderful than to raise up and quicken the dead? Yet the same Son says, As the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them, even so the Son quickens whom He will. How, then, does the Father alone do wondrous things, when these words allow us to understand neither the Father only, nor the Son only, but assuredly the one only true God, that is, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit?


12. Also, when the same apostle says, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him, who can doubt that he speaks of all things which are created; as does John, when he says, All things were made by Him? I ask, therefore, of whom he speaks in another place: For of Him, and through Him, and in Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen. For if of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so as to assign each clause severally to each person: of Him, that is to say, of the Father; through Him, that is to say, through the Son; in Him, that is to say, in the Holy Spirit — it is manifest that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one God, inasmuch as the words continue in the singular number, To whom be glory forever. For at the beginning of the passage he does not say, O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of the Father, or of the Son, or of the Holy Spirit, but of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counsellor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and in Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen. But if they will have this to be understood only of the Father, then in what way are all things by the Father, as is said here; and all things by the Son, as where it is said to the Corinthians, And one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and as in the Gospel of John, All things were made by Him? For if some things were made by the Father, and some by the Son, then all things were not made by the Father, nor all things by the Son; but if all things were made by the Father, and all things by the Son, then the same things were made by the Father and by the Son. The Son, therefore, is equal with the Father, and the working of the Father and the Son is indivisible. Because if the Father made even the Son, whom certainly the Son Himself did not make, then all things were not made by the Son; but all things were made by the Son: therefore He Himself was not made, that with the Father He might make all things that were made. And the apostle has not refrained from using the very word itself, but has said most expressly, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; using here the name of God specially of the Father; as elsewhere, But the head of Christ is God.


13. Similar evidence has been collected also concerning the Holy Spirit, of which those who have discussed the subject before ourselves have most fully availed themselves, that He too is God, and not a creature. But if not a creature, then not only God (for men likewise are called gods ), but also very God; and therefore absolutely equal with the Father and the Son, and in the unity of the Trinity consubstantial and co-eternal. But that the Holy Spirit is not a creature is made quite plain by that passage above all others, where we are commanded not to serve the creature, but the Creator; not in the sense in which we are commanded to serve one another by love, which is in Greek δουλεύειν, but in that in which God alone is served, which is in Greek λατρεύειν . From whence they are called idolaters who tender that service to images which is due to God. For it is this service concerning which it is said, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve. For this is found also more distinctly in the Greek Scriptures, which have λατρεύσεις . Now if we are forbidden to serve the creature with such a service, seeing that it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve (and hence, too, the apostle repudiates those who worship and serve the creature more than the Creator), then assuredly the Holy Spirit is not a creature, to whom such a service is paid by all the saints; as says the apostle, For we are the circumcision, which serve the Spirit of God, which is in the Greek λατρεύοντες . For even most Latin copies also have it thus, We who serve the Spirit of God; but all Greek ones, or almost all, have it so. Although in some Latin copies we find, not We worship the Spirit of God, but, We worship God in the Spirit. But let those who err in this case, and refuse to give up to the more weighty authority, tell us whether they find this text also varied in the mss.: Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which you have of God? Yet what can be more senseless or more profane, than that any one should dare to say that the members of Christ are the temple of one who, in their opinion, is a creature inferior to Christ? For the apostle says in another place, Your bodies are members of Christ. But if the members of Christ are also the temple of the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is not a creature; because we must needs owe to Him, of whom our body is the temple, that service wherewith God only is to be served, which in Greek is called λατρεία . And accordingly the apostle says, Therefore glorify God in your body.

Excerpted from New Advent On the Trinity

Friday, March 21, 2025

Jesus Overcame the Things Which Limit Us

The thesis of this post is that Jesus conquered the parts of the human experience which cause so many of us to fail or stumble. What exactly did Jesus overcome? A few things will immediately occur to most of us when we consider this question. Nevertheless, I'm also afraid that most of us have entertained a much too narrow view of the scope of what Christ overcame during his time on this earth. In short, Jesus overcame the things which hinder and limit us in our existence as humans on this planet called earth.

Consider this list of the parts of our experience as humans which Christ overcame:

1. He overcame the system which man has created on this planet. Jesus told his disciples: "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

2. Jesus overcame the temptations to focus his energy and attention on the satisfaction/gratification of his own physical needs, to test God's faithfulness and word, and to betray his obligations to God in exchange for a prominent place in this world (Matthew 4:1-11).

3. Jesus also overcame the god of this world, Satan the Devil (Matthew 4:1-11 and Hebrews 2:14).

4. Jesus overcame our human tendency to succumb to depression (Isaiah 53:3).

5. Christ also overcame the shame which so often originates as a consequence of how we are treated by others (Hebrews 12:2).

6. He overcame the sins which so easily beset and condemn us (II Corinthians 5:21 and I Peter 2:24).

7. He overcame death (Revelation 1:18, Romans 6:9, Hebrews 2:14).

8. Jesus overcame the grave which receives and holds most of us when we die (Revelation 1:18, 20:13-14).

9. He will finally overcome the forces of humankind and completely frustrate their attempt to defeat him (Revelation 17:14) - a future tangible and final defeat of the human system which has dominated this earth since our appearance on its surface.

Moreover, the fact that Jesus overcame all of these things which cause us to stumble and fall is underscored by something Christ said to his disciples in the book of Revelation:

"The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Revelation 3:21)  

Friday, March 14, 2025

The Eucharist in the Gospel of John

In the Gospel of John, after the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes, we read:

On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

--John 6:22-59, ESV

Thus, we see that the symbolism of the Eucharist also appears in the Gospel of John, just as it does in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).

Wednesday, March 12, 2025

Beyond All That We Have Imagined!

This blog has been devoted to the God who cannot be contained. Now, this is a concept that is impossible for us to wrap our minds around. We are bound by time and space. We think in terms of shapes, features, personalities, places, respiration, thinking, learning, etc. Hence, when we try to imagine a being who has no boundaries or limitations, our minds fail us.

God exists outside of everything that limits us! God has no beginning or end. God simply exists, eternally! God isn't confined to one place or time. God has no shape, gender, eyes, ears, hair, hands, legs, genitalia, etc. God doesn't need to breathe or drink water to sustain "his" life. God doesn't need to eat, rest, or sleep. God's mind and thinking doesn't depend on a physical brain and is NOT limited by the information it receives through five senses! God doesn't have to do things a certain way - God can ignite a Big Bang and cause life to evolve.

Moreover, God's reality and perspective is NOT limited or influenced by the personal circumstances and perspectives which necessarily limit us. His mindpower, strength, and energy is unlimited. Scripture informs us that God is also the personification of love. Which, of course, means that "his" patience, mercy, kindness, compassion, forgiveness is without limits. Indeed, God's morality is built on the principle of love. There is no room for vindictiveness, humiliation, or violence of any kind. This is the God who cannot be contained in our minds or anywhere else! 

Saturday, March 8, 2025

Moving Forward with God's Grace

I am so proud of my younger brother, Steven. He has endured so much heartache and sorrow over the course of the last twenty-five years and has continued to embrace God and move forward. My readers may recall that my sister-in-law passed away this past December after a long and courageous battle with cancer. Steven took good care of her, honored her wishes, and did the right thing by her son and parents.

The contents of his house and life with Whendy has now been divided up, and the house which they shared has been sold. Steven has found a new home for himself and is planning a new life based on faith, his family, their dog, and a whole lot of fishing. May God bless his new home. May it always be a refuge for him and a comfort when he is tired. May God bless whatever time he has left on this earth with health, peace, and happiness! 

Friday, March 7, 2025

Taking Responsibility for My Own Choices

In the course of this blog's existence, I have been sharply critical of the leadership and theology of the Armstrong Churches of God. Now, I still believe that all of those criticism were valid and deserved. Nevertheless, in the discussions that have been generated here and on other blogs in which I have participated, the question of my own culpability in my entrapment in this cult has arisen a number of times.

First, I want to say that I embrace that as a valid question, and one that a person of real integrity is bound to consider and to offer some response. Having accepted the question, I want to acknowledge immediately that I do accept a large share of the responsibility for my involvement in Armstrongism. If that surprises any of my fellow survivors, it might warrant a little introspection on your own part!

The PLAIN TRUTH is that I was intellectually lazy and did NOT do my due diligence! In short, taking a so-called college level Bible Correspondence Course, reading the Bible and a bundle of booklets and articles on various doctrinal issues did NOT constitute a comprehensive, objective, or critical review of the information available to me. I allowed someone to feed me a pre-packaged, highly subjective interpretation of the Bible. Looking back, it is clear that I accepted the inferior research of others simply because it sounded superficially plausible in explaining a very complicated reality. In other words, while I was definitely interested and looking for answers, I was not willing to do the deep dive necessary to arrive at an informed conclusion.

Sure, it is easier for folks now than it was back in the day. We didn't have the internet at our fingertips, and it is a tremendous resource in the right hands for ferreting out truth. Even so, I cannot escape that realization in the back of my mind that tells me I should have known better. I also have to admit to myself that it did feel good to think that I was privy to inside information that wasn't available to everyone. The allure of being in on the big secret exerted a powerful influence on my ego/vanity!

Over time, I also allowed those master manipulators to place me in a mental straitjacket. I stopped thinking for myself. I stopped asking questions, researching, and seeking answers to the big questions. I allowed myself to be convinced that such curiosity would lead me to the Dark Side of the Force - that I would make myself vulnerable to losing the "truth" and salvation which I thought that I had found! Looking back, it is clear that I also ignored a great deal of evidence over the years which contradicted the interpretations that I had accepted so enthusiastically!

Yes, there were plenty of occasions for me to reject Armstrongism over the years, but I continued to dismiss or ignore the warning signs that things were amiss. I knew that racism was wrong, and I majored in the history of the United States and Britain in college. The evidence was right in front of me that Anglo-Israelism was completely absurd - that what I had already learned had completely and thoroughly discredited the heresy. Looking back now, I have to say that my excuses for taking as long as I did to emerge from the delusion of Armstrongism look pretty weak and pathetic in hindsight!

The point of this post? NEVER allow yourself to be satisfied. Continue to look, explore, question, research, and learn. Also, listen to your own conscience and invite the Holy Spirit to help you in your search for answers and understanding. Do NOT go and dig in the earth and bury the "treasure" which you believe has been entrusted to you. Jesus Christ, your Savior and mine, made it very clear that he expected his disciples to increase/multiply what he had entrusted to them!