I have included a few of Navarro's list of traits below that stood out to me as being applicable to Herbert W Armstrong:
He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
Demands blind, unquestioned obedience.
Has a sense of entitlement—expecting to be treated as special at all times.
Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives, putting others at financial risk.
Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
Has insisted on always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or the outside world.
Monitors and/or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
Has taken away followers' freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life and liberty.
It seems to me that enough of these traits apply to HWA to identify him as a dangerous cult leader. And, in terms of my own experience (and the experiences of others known to me) within HWA's Worldwide Church of God, Navarro's final paragraph seemed to really hit the nail on the head. He wrote:
"When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you, then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer, even if they don’t know yet that they will."
Hi Miller,
ReplyDeleteWhazzup.
I wouldnt worry too much about those characteristics. A lot of those would fit any modern leader, like Bill Clinton or John Kennedy.
In searching the validity of organisations people must see a Red Flag in "ex-member" organizations though.
Ex-jehova, ex mormons etc etc.
People should ask themselves. There are not many "ex-scouts" or "ex-bmw driver" organizations out there are they?
I do not worry about personal characteristics as I said, I'm more of a "systems man."
People should beware of "destructive control techniques" that might apply for cults, businesses, aspiring actors in hollywood, the military etc etc
One of those techniques is when a person experiences, genuine overwhelming love and joy in a new group, suddenly they find themselves ostracized or repelled.
This continuous attraction-repelling combined with a message of huge esoteric promise in the future or horrid suffering and fear in the near future leads a personality to abandon the "self" and start the process of letting the thinking do bu others.
The attraction becomes the drug abd the fear the whip to conformity.
Therefore it will never work to get someone to deprogram from a group or a cult by attacking the founder or the beliefsystem.
As a matter of fact it reinforces their view of the outside world as dangerous or satanic. An attack us exactly what a programmed mind expects.
People are NEVER 100 percent convinced. All have doubts or have seen and experienced evil. People should relearn to trust that what THEY feel us actually right and does not need to be checked or conformed to the expectations of the group.
Only 30 percent of people will never be swayed by group think.
The USA itself is in mortal danger through black and white division with no allowance for grey shades. To allow this divide to occur is in itself the first step of cultic behavior by letting the thinking do by pundits and absorb oneself into one of the two available choices, thereby abandoning the "self". Only to awaken when all is destroyed or all are dead or all lemmings contracted covid then to realize, what have we done, as a group of former individuals.
Nck
nck, Good point about the love/joy and ostracize/repel technique (and those of us who had any experience with the WCOG or its descendants will recognize this one). Also, your point about attacking the founder of the belief system reinforcing the views of some adherents has some validity.
DeleteNevertheless, I believe the perspective of an independent professional writing in the generic sense (Herbert and the WCOG were not the object/target of the author) might be more readily received than the commentary of a former member. Don't you think that current members will recognize some/many of these traits in Herbie or their current leadership? Moreover, many of these traits harken back to the attraction/fear formula that you so eloquently explained in your contribution here.
All true Miller.
ReplyDeleteTo be short.
Your points focussed on the characteristics of an individual.
My point of interest lies in the recognition of mind control techniques. They are applicable in business, sales, the military, democracy, mindless destruction of society or control of the same.
I was mostly quoting from a documentary on the Brunstad Christian Church or "Smiths Friends" I saw the other day and a "deprogramming expert" was interviewed.
One of the former members said that she was never swayed by rational arguments or people shouting or attacking her. ( I believe that lovely defector granddaughter of Westboro Baptist, said the same).
However she (already being somesort of "rebel", lived in a student flat and a friend of the cult needed assistance for abuse, she tried to talk and seek help from the pastors.
When they flatly denied her request for aiding her friend, "something snapped" she said, and she never returned.
I remember that also in wcg. I was always an independent thinker (looking for info on the armstrong cult in the library since I was 6 year old) but ALSO 100 percent in line with the party. When one of my siblings was disciplined openly by our pastor without proper procedure, something snapped in me and I was ready to burn the house of our youth leader and burn all ties with wcg.
My point.
It's not the people but the techniques that are the weakest link. The leader will be forgiven for any sin, but when a spell is broken, nothing will fix humpty dumbty again.
nck
It's like the Germans waking up after WWII.
ReplyDeleteMany still loved (the accomplishments of) the Fuhrer, but the spell for the party was broken after they learned their brothers were really dead at Stalingrad and the cities laid waste.
nck
On "the two trees" topic at banned, I posted this to John.......
ReplyDelete. (just part of my complete posting)
"
Evil is often presented as "the battle against evil". This should remind us to seek it first in ourselves. Every punishment we administer should be considered a defeat for all involved, no reason for rejoicing. To humiliate or ostracise others is to point toward humans as expendables.
The bible speaks about two trees and knowledge VERSUS the ancient belief system that "the strongest is good."
Who is to decide that an old age pensioner with covid is expandable and should let a 40 year old go first to IC? A person who "KNOWS", signals that that person is in the know who are the "expendable humans."
I am a firm believer in understanding the world through knowledge about myself.
Nck
Hi Miller.
ReplyDeleteSince at banned they resort to censorship over dialogue, as I experience the past 2 weeks I will leave another tip here.
Bully, Coward, Victim. The story of Roy Cohn. 93 min doc
Its about a bad person, but also charismatic and intensely loyal to friends.
More than "Wheres my Roy Cohn" the above obe looks at his accomplishes, american society and its quid pro quo culture.
Meeropol explicitly states that if we want to prevent a next "harvey weinstein", cohn, epstein, we will need to understand WHY, we are taken hostage by wrong power and characters.
This is a story about the evil character/lawyer behind, joe mccarthy, trump and demagoguery making a living of untruths.
A pity banned needs to resort to limiting intellectual exchange. I'm still learning where its boundaries within its mission lie.
I guess I give you a hard time now and then. But its your fault that you remain kind. Perhaps you are more curious than average.
Nck
BTW Funny you mention the FBI.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it the Atlanta office holding 700 pages of undisclosed information on HWA for reasons of National Security?
nck
nck,
DeleteAs someone who had a security clearance and used to read daily intelligence summaries, there is a great deal of information that the general public doesn't see just because it would embarrass someone. If the FBI does have undisclosed information about HWA, it may relate to his interactions with world leaders; but it doesn't necessarily imply that he was doing anything of great import in world affairs. Thus, while such information may or may not exist, it would probably be more interesting to us than it would to historians or most other folks.
By the way, I have never considered you as giving me a hard time. I enjoy the way you challenge myself and others to think. It's only the folks who don't enjoy thinking who feel annoyed.
Yeah I know.
DeleteSometimes I need a bit of relaxation to the point of boring. Then I talk to sane people like yourself. My natural habitat are the insane.
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-fbi-files-on-wcg.html?m=1
Nck
1 Cor 13:4-8, something Armstrongism has failed to learn.
Delete