tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1771481682224413552.post2398033560492931877..comments2024-03-16T02:12:38.325-07:00Comments on God cannot be contained!: Seeing Jesus in the TorahMiller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrixhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02865316200703641028noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1771481682224413552.post-31642090369696649932022-06-06T07:27:28.264-07:002022-06-06T07:27:28.264-07:00As an afterthought, it occurred to me that Dennis&...As an afterthought, it occurred to me that Dennis' reference to Dave Pack and "special knowledge" may be on the minds of other folks who share our experience of Armstrongism. While it is certainly true that Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Flurry, and Dave Pack all saw themselves in Scripture, I would say that this is a fundamentally different phenomenon from us seeing Jesus in Scripture. After all, Christ claimed that he was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets - that all of those writings pointed to him. For Christians, this a foundational/elemental kind of belief - You either accept/believe that Jesus was who he said he was, or you don't! In other words, if we reject that Jesus of Nazareth was the fulfillment of the Law and Prophets, then we have no basis for following Christ - for being a Christian! Accepting or rejecting what David Pack has to say about himself may identify you as a member of RCG and/or crazy, but it has NO bearing on your identity as a follower of Christ (a Christian).<br />Moreover, once again, we are talking about accepting/believing in the founder of the religion - we are not talking about things like what happens after we die, the number of entities in the Godhead, or which Holy Days/holidays we should be observing! Granted, many Christians (including most Armstrongites) will see these things as equivalent; but I'm hoping that most of my longtime readers will be able to discern a distinction between a belief in Christ, and a belief in Herbert Armstrong and his teachings! On a fundamental level, a Christian MUST believe that God exists, and that he rewards those who diligently seek him. Likewise, a Christian MUST accept that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and is his/her Savior. Once again, this is elemental/foundational/essential. The other stuff is ancillary/incidental at best and is probably more accurately described as superfluous or just plain old crazy! Bottom line, what you believe about Elijah and/or the trinity isn't going to get you into (or keep you out of) God's Kingdom!Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865316200703641028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1771481682224413552.post-50413859178282635612022-06-05T16:49:49.353-07:002022-06-05T16:49:49.353-07:00Dennis concisely and articulately makes the case t...Dennis concisely and articulately makes the case that all non-believers make in responding to this argument. And, YES, that is the point - without the guidance of God's Spirit, you won't find Jesus in the Torah! Unfortunately, this is an example of the kind of circular reasoning and appeal to authority that non-believers use to discredit Christian beliefs. They point out that the belief is founded in FAITH - NOT in any physical evidence. Then, they turn around and claim that faith is meaningless and is not really a foundation for anything! Likewise, many Christians resort to quoting Scripture to these non-believers which demonstrates absolutely NOTHING to them. They do not accept the authority of Scripture, and they correctly view the Christian as trying to prove the thing they are attempting to prove by using the very thing that is in dispute as proof! Thus, if we REALLY believe that Jesus is found in the Torah ONLY with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to demonstrate his presence in those writings to a non-believer by ANY argument that we alone and unaided can offer! Dennis' comment demonstrates the absolute truth of this very nicely.<br /><br />As for Paul's treatise on the significance of the veil that Moses wore, once again, from a non-believer's perspective, Dennis is absolutely correct! Without the Holy Spirit, going strictly by what is written in the Torah about the veil, we see that it served to shield the Israelites from the Divine glory which Moses' face reflected. Paul's characterization of the veil as something that restricted the people's understanding of the Law is an invention of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! It simply isn't there without it! This goes to the heart of what it means to be a Christian - you're either a believer, or you aren't! You either believe (have faith) that Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ - acting under Divine inspiration, or you don't!<br /><br />For the saints at Corinth, Paul explained the principle in this way: "6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.<br />9 But as it is written:<br />“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,<br />Nor have entered into the heart of man<br />The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”<br />10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I Corinthians 2:6-14) Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865316200703641028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1771481682224413552.post-42867968028849213402022-06-05T16:00:17.963-07:002022-06-05T16:00:17.963-07:00My friend, Dennis Diehl, has graciously given me p...My friend, Dennis Diehl, has graciously given me permission to use the comments he sent to my private e-mail account here. He wrote:<br /><br />Thanks, and I understand your perspective. <br />However, without the guidance of God's Spirit, you will NOT see Jesus in the Torah! Well that's the point isn't it? It's not that Jesus is actually spoken of in the OT. It is that one believes so because of special knowledge which anyone can claim to make any point that is not actually so. Dave Pack also says "The scriptures point to me" as Jesus did and we don't give that statement on Dave's part to actually be true unless one is one of Dave's disciples.<br />You're right, a man will not see what they are unwilling to see". People see what they need to see and that matches their preconceived need to see it. <br />This is the classic apologetic for the topic. It is not how either the Jewish Scholars whose Book it is or Christian scholars would see it as noted. They have good reason to note it. But I do understand your perspective. I had it for a lifetime.<br /><br />Later, in reference to II Corinthians 3:7-16, Dennis added:<br /><br />This has always been a fascinating "fudge" on what the OT story actually says. Paul turns Moses veil, originally worn when in the presence of the people to shield them from the brilliance of being in God's presence and the giving of the Law, ie the Torah, into a BLINDFOLD. That is a twist to the original story and does not represent the truth of the Old Testament account. It's make the story mean what it did not mean originally to promote a new idea but using an old example badly. <br />Exodus 34…32And after this all the Israelites came near, and Moses commanded them to do everything that the LORD had told him on Mount Sinai. 33When Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face. 34But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would remove the veil until he came out. And when he came out, he would tell the Israelites what he had been commanded,… <br />34But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would remove the veil until he came out. And when he came out, he would tell the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35and the Israelites would see that the face of Moses was radiant. So Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the LORD.<br />The veil was not a blindfold , "to this day" as Paul insists. It was originally to dampen down the glory of what God just gave Moses , the glory of the Law and not as a blindfold noting Jewish ignorance of their own scriptures. Paul just makes this explanation upMiller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865316200703641028noreply@blogger.com