Whatever the issues of the day, Black Lives Matter, slavery, and abortion, to name but three, a great deal of ignorance abounds. Gone is the grounding people once had in the Christian scriptures. Now, people spout their opinions, whatever they may be, exposing their ignorance on all topics.
The secularists may still appreciate the Hallelujah Chorus, for the inspiring music, but gone is the faith of their ancestors. It has been replaced solely by ignorance."
My first date with the mother of my children was on the occasion of a performance of The Messiah at the Von Braun Civic Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Then, as now, I felt inspired and appreciated the allusion to the fulfillment of God's plan for humankind as outlined in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Hence, my admiration for this composition could never be described as being secular in nature.
And, although the first two Hanoverian kings of Britain recognized Handel's talent, neither of them could fairly be characterized as "Christian" kings - unless we are using that term in the generic sense - as in, Donald Trump is a "Christian" president. George I was an adulterer who imprisoned his wife for seeking solace in the arms of another and had several children with his mistress. Likewise, George II had several mistresses and was estranged from his father and heir (the Prince of Wales) for many years. Both George's were crude, vindictive men who spoke little English and used the British throne to further the interests of their principality in Germany (NCK objected to my characterization of it as a minor principality in the previous version of this post). Moreover, as far as the "Divine Right of Kings" is concerned, the only reason the Hanoverians ascended the British throne was that Parliament had barred the legitimate heir to the throne from the succession because he was a Roman Catholic!
In fact, the quotation from Dr. Roy Atwood is a perfect example of the kind of sentimental/nostalgic/fairytale history that I referenced in my post. For those who are interested in correcting the errors of their forefathers, the solution is relatively simple. It only requires a little intellectual curiosity, an open mind, a desire to be a better person and faith in God's ability to transform and forgive.
See Mr. Rhodes' post here: https://melvinrhodes.wordpress.com/2020/08/06/the-age-of-ignorance/
Hello Mr Jones.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your quest for pure and unadulterated christianity. So I do understand my response to the posting to be a bit off topic.
Since you are a historian I am biting my tongue to not further distract from the topic at hand.
But I cant help to correspond pressing matters.
-to have one of the 50 catholic pretenders on the english throne would have been illegal through "the act of settlement". William 3rd had been specifically "invited" to prevent catholics to rule
Its a big thing to not be part of the Holy Roman Empire
-indeed the Electorate Council (hannover) did Elect the person to be HREmperor and they held special priviliges only accountable to the Emperor.
-the personal union ended with victoria, but it is no coincidence the "British sector" ruling Northern Germany from 1945-1992 (as sovereign legal power) encompassed Hannover - Luneburg.
-I dont know about the characters of the kings. I know marriages in those circles were driven by dynastic/political concerns not sentimental Hallmark psychology we prefer since Freud
-a christian king was more a political term to denote allies in the concert of nations. Just like we use phrases like, democratic countries or "civilized nations, before that. This was before the United Nations was established, but there were systems of international order
Ok, enough about my legal concerns.
Back to the religion part.
In the last paragraph you advocate personal transformation. I would agree. I do wonder about the systemic arguments though that are proposed by many protesters. Even if I love systemic order a lot. In fact I preferred it over pure democracy during the Cold War I must admit.
Nck
You are obviously familiar with the history surrounding these events. It is a little disingenuous though to suggest the presence of 50 Catholic pretenders to the English throne. The 15 and 45 were fought on behalf of the legitimate male heir of the Stuart Dynasty, and there's no getting around the fact that it was Parliament that changed the succession to the crown (it was really stretching credibility to pretend that anyone was ruling by Divine Right by this time).
DeleteYes, the Dukes of Brunswick had been made electors of the empire by this time (but the reality of Germany at this time was that it was a loosely confederated collection of very independent principalities). As you know, Salic law prevented Victoria from inheriting the Hanover territories, and the Prussians gained the ascendancy in Germany during her reign. We are in complete agreement about the political meaning of the term "Christian" king. My point was that Melvin Rhodes was quoting a modern religious scholar's inaccurate speculation/interpretation of historical events. Dr. Atwood's explanation of George II's motivation for standing does not fit the circumstances of the Hanoverian monarchy or the first two representatives of that dynasty (the patrons of Handel).
Finally, I would say that traditions and systemic order are worthy of preservation only if they are fair and relevant (I like Jefferson's thoughts on this - as expressed in the American Declaration of Independence from George II's grandson, George III).
Well I agree. And I would urge readers not to be distracted by my sole legal and historical musings.
DeleteNever did I mention "Germany."
The Electors or "Kuerfursten" were the "Chosen Ones" to Elect the "Holy Roman Emperor of the German Nation," which since a long time had been a Habsburg King. However the Emperor title was not Hereditary, even as a Habsburger had been CHOSEN for centuries.
Likewise you seem to suggest that parliament made the "ruling by divine providence" obsolete.
No KING believes that.
Elisabeth was annointed, as a king is supposed to be according to divine providence. Specific actions are done to invoke the presence of God during a coronontion as for instance the coat of a king symbolizes the connection with the earth, as it touches the ground.
I must maintain my position that the protestant princes breaking away from the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, that ended with Napoleon usurping the Emperor title, are indeed legitimate princes and kings. To this day they privately hold true that they rule by divine providence even IF they are all Constitutional Monarchies.
To add a little gossip here.
The son of the Spanish King just sent his father in exile because he fully understands that corruption means the end of his kingship with the people as sovereign power.
It is rumored that the princess of Monaco still has not divorced her bum nutcase husband of hers who is the head of the house of Hannover because her title is much higher than that of her brother who is just a "mere prince of monaco". While she is a princess of the elector of the Holy Roman emperor, who is only existant in fiction and she is of course just an unhappy spiritual widow and daugher of movie star.
As the future King George of the Commonwealth will be the descendant of a Yorkshire miner.
Alas the days of greatness have gone.
We have "twitter emperors", a real chance Kanye West will indeed rule the Western World and Queens are undecided on their gender as influencers girls sway the sentiments of millions on what filler to use next.
This is what the "pursuit of happiness" has done to us, when it was redefined by hwa's colleague, Edward Bernays, into "the pursuit of consumerism" through "the World of Tomorrow" of technological advances. (coined in NY 1939)
Poor artists and their princes patrons.
Michelangelo really wanted to sculp stone, but his princely patrons demanded paintings and buildings to his horror.
The revenge of the artists came when David Wynne (HWA's favorite sculptor) decided to introduce the Beatles to the Maharishi and not HWA at the exact time he placed his mark on the AC campusses through his sculpting.
Artists and political power.
Such a dangerous combination.
Did I tell you that on my way to the hotel at my underground stop in Vienna I used to watch the ceilings of a huge house of a jewish banking family.
The ceilings were painted by a professor of the Vienna academy.
Indeed. The same one who rejected a young aspiring austrian artist for his mundane painting.
What a shame, he rejected him what if young Adolf would have been accepted to the Academy and had pursued a career in house painting.
nck
NCK,
ReplyDeleteAs you know, Germany was more of a concept than a reality until Prussia's Bismarck forged the nation that wears that moniker today. You are, of course, correct to speak of the Holy Roman Empire and the folks who had the privilege of electing an emperor (though, as you suggest, the reality was that a Hapsburg held the title almost exclusively from the 15th Century forward). Hence, it is both correct and misleading to characterize George I, George II and Handel as Germans (they obviously weren't Germans in the same sense that we think of Angela Merkel as being German).
As for the Divine Right of Kings, the notion that a king derived his position and authority from God and was not beholden to any human or group of humans was challenged with the execution of Charles I and finally demolished with the Glorious Revolution in 1688. Thereafter, it was clear that all British monarchs served at the pleasure of Parliament. The coronation ceremony maintains the pretense of Divine Right, but we are talking about political reality. As you know, the notion of rule by a Prime Minister evolved under the first two Hanoverians and was fully formed by the reign of the last Hanoverian (Victoria). "By the Grace of God," is the relic of a long extinct reality from another age. And, while George I and George II were often dull and obtuse, they both knew on which side their bread was buttered (they understood how they had obtained the British crown).
Your speculation about an artistic career for Hitler was great - IF ONLY!
A)
ReplyDeleteI agree.
The first document issued to limit the powers of a prince and delegate powers by law to the nobles, seems to have been the Magna Charta, "subjecting" King John, after his brothers ransom wrecked the nation economically.
Some years ago I did cycle along the Danube and had a snack at the castle where Richard the Lionheart was held until his ransom was fully paid. I will now soon descend on Hannover on my way to the former "Kingdom of Bohemia." They also delivered an Elected Emperor before the Habsburg reasserted their Imperial Power.
I would wish for you to one day visit Dresden and see people refer to themselves as "Saxons" or the parts of France where the "Burgundian" tribes eventually settled.
Not so long ago there were the Basques being a nuissance to "the nation state" by their tribal affilations transferred to modern times. The Catalans have politicians in prison today, for the accusation of seccession. The Tirolians do not feel Italian at all.
I do wonder what this Covid and Brexit thing will do for the Scottish sentiment to not be ruled by those funny Sachsenachs anymore.
We are discussing the development of modern nationhood. From early tribal affiliations toward "the nation state." We will see how long the nation state will do as a concept and perhaps supranational or groupings of nations will become the norm according to the span of control made possible by modern technology and communications, or political and economic necessity. In international relations, there is no divine order.
Well, perhaps Mr Rhodes or anyone will be inspired by our musings about the complexities of history as the romantics make sweeping generalisations of have romantic illusions about how the modern world order came to be.
Let me just stray back on topic.
We in the Western World speak of "divine rights". (As the Jordan Monarchy claim descendancy from Muhammed.)
The Chinese have about the same concept, only they speak about "the mandate of heaven."
To understand XI and the rule of the Communist Party, one must realize that EVEN they were not able to root out the people's belief or superstition in the "mandate of heaven". Curses obviously signal that rulers have lost the mandate of heaven and prosperity of the people signals that they still "got it."
That is a driving force to forever produce "growth figures" for the Chinese. Once upon a time the British believed that the divine mandate of heaven was bestowed upon them to exercise authority on peoples.
B)
ReplyDeleteThe Germans spoke about the Zeitgeist (the spirit guiding time), and 300 peoples and principalities were brought under the umbrella of "Germany". I know you are aware that "Deutschland Uber Alles" did not mean that Germany was superior to other nations, however it spoke to the Romantic sentiment that the 300 independent principalities were subject to the Romantic Poetic notion of an unified "Germany over them, as a political and spiritual realm."
Not many people know that Germany has a president. They know Merkel. The President usually involves himself with philosophical musings as a symbolic figurehead. Goethe styled himself as the towering poetic, poet King, towering over the German nation, distant but speaking to the Romantic soul of the German.
That darn Covid might just impede my visit to the Goethe museum in Weimar, but I thought I'd share some of my thoughts with my distant friend who loved Handel in a theater in Alabama.
The latest word has it that Hannover requires Covid affected children to remain separate from their families in separate rooms and have seperate dinners. To me it is amusing to see the row, ideas like this create among the modern peoples. I look upon the world as a play and when the time comes we will play our respective roles.
It is hard to know what rulers feel like they are also playing roles and which ones are motivated by divine providence. It is hard to tell. They say Elisabeth II feels strongly about duty toward her people. I find it strange to see old footage of her with Queen Mary or Winston Churchill from days gone by and at that this same person today is on skype, seeing transitions and changes in society whilst manoevering the politicians shennenigans.
nck
I was an Anglophile long before I accepted HWA's British Israelism, and I continue to be one after rejecting it! Like you, I admire Elizabeth II and her sense of duty, and she has witnessed much history. Moreover, although I am an advocate of a clear-eyed view of human history, I am also not immune to sentimentality and nostalgia.
DeleteQueen Victoria succeeded in restoring some of the luster and mystique that her Hanoverian predecessors and Parliament had tarnished; and the present Queen has conducted herself admirably in my opinion. In talking about the succession to the British throne, it should also be remembered that the House of Brunswick were direct descendants of the first Plantagenet King of England, Henry II. Moreover, the current Queen has a great deal of Scottish heritage via her mother and is a descendant of the first Stuart King (James I). Finally, through Princess Diana, William and Harry (and their children) bring back into the royal family the blood of Charles I and Charles II. For those who are interested, it should also be noted that Prince Philip is a direct descendant in the male line of the Danish Royal House of Oldenburg-Glucksburg (those Vikings are going to sit on the English throne after all).
I admire your travels and wish I was able to imitate them. I was able to travel to England, Wales and Ireland many years ago; but I would very much like to see the rest of Europe. I have always been proud of my European heritage via English nobility and my descent from Charlemagne, Henry the Fowler, Hugh Capet, Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror, Brian Boru, the Counts of Barcelona and Rurik of Kiev.
SAY WHAT.
DeleteI'll say a little prayer on your behalf as I at times pass the resting places of your forebears.
I did so on behalf of Robert Kuhn ('s wife), when I set my abode at Deir es Zor at the Euphrates. I did so at the shrine at the end and commemarating the Armenian trail of tears....... Just before the entire church was blown to smithereens. Not that the Kuhns know me, but I am a believer in realms that are beond us, connect and work in favor or against us. So I perform these rituals on others or perhaps my own behalf.
I don't think I ever met a descendant of Rurik of Kiev. They are the inner core of my travel behavior, as I think of them as an outstanding team, seeking passage from sweden to the black sea, completely certain of their mission. Uncompromising in their understanding of what a life is supposed to encompass. (and yes the reality might be to collect some russian slaves to sell on the staple market in dublin), but who is interested in reality when one can go on a quest to discover the inner wonders og drive and ideology.
I'll say hi to the movers and shakers in your dna.
Rurik, who would have thunk.
Charlemagne, I met quite a few, perhaps if the occasion arises I should endeavor to meet your cousin Cindy Crawford.
Nck
:) LOL! Most West Europeans are descendants of Charlemagne. Most folks with British ancestry are descendants of the Conqueror. Some of us are just fortunate to actually know the generations between us and them. I am also descended from a Hessen midwife who lived four hundred years ago and delivered hundreds of babies and some Swiss Protestants - kings and paupers! Seriously, thanks for the prayers if you really meant it. I was overwhelmed with emotion and awe when I visited Westminster Abbey, Bath Cathedral and St. Patrick's in Dublin. There's something special about worshipping and praying in a place where folks have been doing so for over a thousand years!
DeleteSeriously! I do that thing.
DeleteI mean, who would make that story about Deir es Zur up?
I payed hommage to 20.000 american ww1 soldiers in the Meuse area and 200.000 in Verdun.
The thing is your ancestors had a nasty habit of having their heart buried at a different place from the rest of their body at times, I noticed at Fontefroid.
Iona was wet and cold.
In Samarkand I visited Timur Lenk just in case you have unaccounted for dna sets.
A real shame you dont have leverage with Cindy for me.
I visited the gold shrine at Aachen twice.
Hessen.... I believe the lads from Hessen played a large part in the Revolutionary War. I took a Mickey out of BB once, as I claimed that the germans had trampled american soil as prophesied. He didnt take it well.
I do have opinions on Erdohan opening the Hagia Sophia for prayer again, but I am silence as long as the byzantine murals will be taken care of.
Nck